INTERVIEW: Jermaine Fowler (of The Humanity Archives Podcast)
Jermaine Fowler
The Photo Ladies Interview
Louisville, KY native, historian, educator, scholar, speaker and writer Jermaine Fowler is the son of educators and has a lifelong love of history. As the founder and host of The Humanity Archive podcast, he hopes to shed some light on historical figures and events in an engaging and thought-provoking way, using the art of storytelling to weave the stories of the past into lessons for society today. With so many people in our society not knowing the real history of our country, Fowler aims to educate people on the things that school textbooks and curriculums have not included over the years. He seeks to move past the white-washed, sanitized and sugar-coated version of American history that many people learned in school to share the real and uglier aspects of our history. He shares the dismissed, untold and forgotten stories that pertain to women and black, minority and indigenous people throughout history. Aside from focusing on people and events that aren't often discussed or well-known, Fowler also discusses well-known topics from a different perspective. His goal is to use the wisdom of our shared past as a tool to help us all think critically about the present. Using tools such as videos, articles, study guides and his podcast, Fowler hopes to educate, entertain and inspire. You can follow Jermaine Fowler and connect with The Humanity Archive podcast via the links below.
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You grew up believing the version of the American Dream of going to college, which was tied to having a career and money and upward mobility. This led you to get a degree in business instead of pursuing a degree in history and sociology. What was it that finally led you to follow your passion for history and educating?
For me, it just seemed like the opportunities, with the internet and the online explosion of social media platforms where other people were presenting themselves in that way, made me think "Wow, here's an opportunity that I can kind-of lean into". I started to just put my thoughts and my studies out there to see how it takes. It was just the whole internet really and the platforms you can use to broadcast yourself.
It's definitely easier to get information out into the world now!
Absolutely! There are low barriers for entry. It doesn't cost a lot of money to start. You can really just have a cellphone and some thoughts and put them out there. That can work out for better or for worse sometimes. Sometimes with the people who are putting thoughts out there, it's like "Maybe you should calm down a little bit" (laughs). You get some people who may otherwise not have had the accessibility to a platform, whether it be for exercise or history or whatever anybody is doing. A chef making food at home or whatever.
With your podcast, you tell the stories of the more marginalized people/groups and those who are lesser known or stories that have been told but from a different perspective. What led you to want to approach your podcast in that way and tell those stories and approach it from a storytelling arc in general? The way you present each episode really draws people in with the storytelling and engaging nature, rather than just presenting facts and statistics.
I think that's something that's kind-of come naturally to me. I think whenever I started this that I knew for a fact that I wanted to be kind of anti-history in the way of that boring, drab, monotone way of teaching. I kept asking myself how I could tell these stories in the most compelling way possible. I've tried to take a bit of a journalistic approach to the study of history. I'm trying to get the interesting facts, but also underlying that with an entertaining aspect and really trying to do what a historian does in the way of presenting facts and analysis on history, as well. I try to package it in an entertaining and storytelling kind of way.
How do you come up with the topics, people and/or events you want to discuss for each episode? Do you know ahead of time or do you just see what pops out at you when you are doing your research and find people/events that you want to dig deeper into?
I try to be methodical about it because there is so much information out there that you can get lost down a rabbit hole of research and I love to research. I pursue things that are intellectual in general. I have stacks upon stacks of books. Some of my favorite places are libraries and bookstores. With all of that, I do kind of have to reel myself in, so to speak and say "Ok. I need to focus on certain topics". I do try to make it topical but am always trying to uplift the humanity of people whose voices might not be heard. I try to foster senses of empathy and sympathy with an audience for people whose stories aren't heard as much, whether that's black people, women, minorities, or immigrants. Also, if I tell the story about a person who is more known, I try to hit it from a different angle and either awaken people or enlighten people in some way.
You have said that teaching the past can help to change the future and that history is an important lesson for every up and coming generation. What do you see as the most important historical lessons that can be applied to today's world?
When you look at history, the biggest thing for me is to see that no one culture and no one people have a monopoly on anything...on culture, on science, on math, on wisdom. I think that is a big eye opener. If people study a broad history, they will see all of humanity no matter where they look, whether it's South America, Africa, North America, Australia...everyone has something to contribute in some way. I think that is the true meaning of diversity. The diversity of thought and of study is to look at the different cultures of people and see what they've had had to offer. I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned. There are so many. I think ultimately it is to just see the things that are happening now that have happened before and that themes are recurring. To see how other people have had to, whether it be different atrocities that have happened, to see how they made it through or how they held onto hope through different trials in their lives. I just dig into those stories to see how we are similar to people in the past and how we can learn from them.
What inspired your love for history and education? Did you have a teacher or other figure in your life growing up who really instilled that love for you?
It would definitely have to be my parents. Both of them are educators in the public school system, so I think that seeing them finding joy in teaching and sparking the brains of the youth definitely also sparked something in me. It was like "Wow. I can have a love for knowledge and for sharing that knowledge and do what they're doing but maybe just do it in a different way." I think that's definitely the seed that was planted and is finally growing all of these years later.
You are working on a project called Project 365 that is working to integrate black, women's and indigenous history into school curriculums year round, rather than just having a month devoted to each. What can you tell me about the project and what led you to want to start it?
I think that I never really liked how I would see like Women's, Black and Indigenous History months. To me, that just kind of boxes it into a one month period. I think that the goal should ultimately be to integrate it, right? To have an equality in the telling of the stories in history. For me, until we see that...it does mean something to have these months but that's not the end goal. The founder and creator of Black History Month, Carter G. Woodson, he also had the same idea, to do this for a little while but with the ultimate goal to have it all integrated throughout the year and to see that equality in the storytelling. All these years later it still hasn't happened.
You don't really get the real history, just the edited version.
Yeah-the sugar-coated and sanitized and watered-down version. I think until those real stories are told, there's definitely a need for something like Project 365 in order to push to get those stories in there.
There definitely seems to be a great awakening of sorts. Everyone is really educating themselves on the true history of this country. What do you see school curriculums looking like going forward? Do you have hope that they will reflect a broader, more factual history?
There's always hope, right? I think there are definitely individuals within the school systems who are hoping for that and pushing for that. I have talked to curriculum writers from school districts who want to do this but on the other side, I think you have to look at the school system as a whole because there are always good people within systems that don't really operate in a way that's going to be beneficial. I think we definitely have to look at the institution itself and why this history isn't being taught and why there isn't more equality. One thing that was disturbing to me when I was talking to someone within the public school system was that they are working on different histories but it's going to like an elective in college. So that again segregates and keeps it to the side. If it's a choice, are people really going to choose to take those classes or are they going to look at them differently? So I think that's really not the goal, unfortunately.
That's disappointing!
It really is. It's not what I was hoping for. So there is definitely still work to do.
You have talked about how the quote from Socrates "The only thing that I know is that I know nothing" is your favorite quote and that you seek to challenge your own assumptions and beliefs and are always striving to learn. What do you think have been the hardest assumptions and beliefs that you have had to overcome?
Yeah. I see that a lot of times everybody thinks they know everything right now. There's like a cult of smartness. I think that by knowing nothing, so to speak, it kind of keeps me with an intellectual humility where you're always seeking new knowledge and never saying you're there, so to speak. You always have work to do. As far as my own assumptions, I mean just growing up in America I've had to deal with internalized racism, which is big in the black community as far as people looking at themselves and feeling the effects that it has personally and psychologically. I think everything from patriarchy to homophobia. I mean, I've struggled with all of those things, whether it be the images or the prevailing ideas within the communities you grow up in. I think that civil war within anybody is worth fighting. I think that first we have to acknowledge it, right? A lot of people are in closet about these assumptions they have and pretend that they don't have them.
Change can't happen until people acknowledge there's something that needs to change.
Yeah. So until we actually come out and expose that, whether it be within ourselves or within society, we can't deal with it. That's why I try to be honest, not only with my social criticisms, because I can talk about things that happen in society, but I think that first you always have to be honest with yourself. That's why I'm so comfortable talking about some of the things that I battle with every day.
What can you tell me about your love of collaboration? You have done Instagram collaborations with Marcie Alvis-Walker (@blackcoffeewithwhitefriends) and @uncolonial_history, to name a couple. What do you find to be the personal benefits of collaboration and do you have anything else in the works?
Yeah, I have several collaborations in the works. I just really try to tap into people who are doing similar things a lot of times. It's not like I'm on there trying to find much contention or anything. I talk to other people who have a love of history and of knowledge and are intellectually minded. I have one coming up with an anti-racism educator and one coming up with a transgender man and I'm going to be talking to a biologist about the history of biological racism. I really just try to tap into as many thinkers as I can as a way to share ideas and knowledge and grow. That's part of growing those collaborations. For me, it's really just for personal growth. A lot of things come out when I have these conversations and different perspectives and I think that's one of the great benefits of collaborations.
What can you tell me about the 'BE THE NEXT ONE' series you did? Is that something you plan to continue?
That really speaks back to the collaboration process. I do have a spirit of collaboration. If I see somebody doing something that is interesting to me or intriguing, I try to tap into that. There was a fantastic artist from Italy and I saw him on social media and he sent me something that he was working on in an email. I was like "Wow. What if we came together and kind of did your art with some poetic prose about historical figures?". We started to build a bit of momentum with the project and then boom, the coronavirus hit and it hit first in Italy, right where he is in Milan. That kind of derailed the project. We still talk and plan to get back off the ground once everything calms down. We'd planned to do maybe 10 historical figures and only got like 2 done before the virus hit and it just dropped off with the virus. It's definitely bittersweet. I'm glad for what we did do, but also hopeful and look forward to continuing.
Sticking with that collaborative series, it explores black history on an international level. What can you tell me about the importance to you of showcasing an international perspective of black history?
I don't want history to be something that's boxed in. I think we have to have a broader perspective and know that the black experience didn't just start at this one point, right? I think when we do that, we tend to pigeonhole it. I always try to go back further into history and dig deeper, and it does take more digging to find those stories. I just did something on the Mali Empire in West Africa. You really have to do some digging to find stuff. I had to dig into some dark recesses of libraries because the information just isn't as available. I think we have to be careful where our starting points are because that can definitely narrow our view whenever we start it too soon. It's the same with other types of histories, as well.
Something you have brought up in the second season of the podcast that I found intriguing is the comparison of oral versus written history. A lot of black and indigenous cultures have historically relied heavily on the oral tradition. What can you tell me about the value you feel there is in the oral histories of different cultures?
Absolutely. I think when we look at that, we first have to look at it as being subjugated and pushed back and pushed down. I think the oral tradition, from the Western perspective, isn't respected. There are some scholars who are trying to uplift it and are fighting for it like "Hey. We need to look at these as the real records". I mean, who's to say? A lot of written history actually was written 100 years later, after the fact as well. There's really no logic behind not including that as part of the record. I definitely think that's something that drives me too with the podcast and the storytelling. There's just something with that live, energetic storytelling that you just can't get from reading a book. And I love reading books so I'm not trying detract anybody from reading books at all! There's definitely an energy and a connection with the speaker and the audience, kind of like a synergy. Anthropologists say that with all cultures, what all of us have in common, no matter where you are from on earth, is storytelling. That's kind of like the currency of life. That's always been interesting to me, to tap into those stories. It's basically like a goldmine of untapped resource because we have all of these oral traditions and oral stories and it's very awesome to be able to bring them to the forefront.
You have also talked about emphasizing black history, beyond just what exists in this country. Why do you feel that black history before America hasn't been more broadly researched and discussed?
I think that ties directly into colonization and subjugation and slavery. Anytime that you have one society or civilization that subjugates another, one of the first things they do is burn the books and erase the history. I always say if people don't have a history, they don't have an identity, so it's harder to get to know them. Then you kind of have those aspects of dehumanization to where you have that thought of the "other" and of "I don't know them and I don't know their story so they're nobody". By erasing people's histories and stories you kind of make them nobody. I think at some point in history, that definitely was the protocol, whether it was inadvertently or purposely done. I think we are still seeing those shadows and those effects lingering today, as far as those stories not being told. That's another thing that drives me, to get to tell those stories.
Something I found interesting that you mention in Season 2 of the podcast, was the question of what might have happened if the Europeans had gone to Africa when the Mali Empire was at it's height and was strong, rather than during it's downfall and whether or not colonization would have happened.
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting thought for sure. There are always these interesting points in history with the "what ifs". What if it had been tweaked a bit one way or another? What if things had gone a little bit this way or that way? I've always been interested in those thoughts. You can go down some rabbit holes with that! I've had to pull myself back for sure (laughs)!
You have also emphasized the concepts of historical thinking and moral energy. Could you talk a bit about why those concepts are so important to you in the study of history, as well as current events?
Yeah. I think for me, I mean, what is history a lot of times? You're exploring relationships between the powerful and the powerless. A lot of it is that, so I think to not have an analysis of that is to do a disservice to the story. I think that's why people see a lot of fakeness in the history as it's taught, because it's not exploring those relationships. It's the "great man theory", right? Like, this great president or this great figure and there's this deification and fetishization of people instead of looking at them in their raw, true humanity and their flaws and triumphs and tragedies and all of that wrapped in together.
Where do you think we go from here? How do you feel we can use history to guide us forward from where we are now? A lot of the issues we are facing now are issues this country has been facing for many years now.
Yeah. I think to me it's just as basic as having a tragic sense of history. Not the sugar-coated, sanitized, watered-down version, but one where we tell the real stories, whether it be stories about slavery or suffrage or individuals who fought for things that are greater and grander than themselves like justice and equality. Those are the stories I try to highlight, because then people can see examples to follow. I think a lot of times we see examples and they may not be the best examples to follow, so we need to highlight people who might be better examples to push democracy and equality and ideas of justice forward. I think that's definitely a way we can use history to push society forward to be more equitable and diverse, which is better for everybody.
We've had important black leaders throughout history, such as Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr and Frederick Douglass. Who do you feel are some current leaders that you feel are really making a difference?
We still have a lot. We just lost John Lewis, but we have philosophers like Cornell West and Angela Davis is still with us. There are figures like that who I still look to that are still with us today. I think that sometimes I see a bit of a vacuum with the young leadership. We have a lot of movements and collectively young people are coming together but I don't really see the emergence of the leadership of the past. Maybe I'm blind! You might be able to tell me some people I'm not seeing. I'm sure they're there! I think things definitely look a little different now. It's more communal I think now, as far as movements, as opposed to there being one Martin Luther King like figure, or a savior-like figure. What I see now is more groups. The power is more in the group rather than a specific leader. I think we'll see how that plays out but ultimately think it can be a good thing.
What gives you hope? Everything going on right now can be very overwhelming. As a historian and seeing the struggles that people have endured throughout history, what gives you hope right now for the future?
I think just the youth. Looking in the eyes of the youth. We have precious youth out here and they have to come into whatever we leave behind and are trying to spearhead something they can follow behind to make the world better for them. It's like the saying "Leave the earth better than you found it". That's the thought process that I have with that. That gives me hope, just trying to leave the earth better than I found it when I got here for the next generation and for my kids and for all of the youth in the world.
What's next for you? You've talked a bit about some collaborations that are in the works, but what else do you have coming up?
Really just pushing forward with Season 2 of the podcast and just focusing in on that. And really trying to build awareness and grow the audience of The Humanity Archive. I think I've really just scratched the surface so far. I've only been doing this really, heavily, since January and it's grown tremendously since then. I really just want to get it out in front of more people and amplify it and just continue to grow it.
What do you have coming up on Season 2? Anything you can talk about or specific themes?
It is a lot of times thematic, which is what I'm going for. It's the 100th year of women's suffrage, so I'm going to tell some of those stories. I also want to tell some stories about war, but not in the more fandom kind of way. There are some people who are more anti-war, so from that perspective that you maybe don't hear as much. So I definitely have a few themes coming up. I also have something else I'm doing with suffrage with UofL. I'm going to be speaking with them on virtual panel. It would have been in person, but with everything going on it will be on a virtual panel. I definitely have some things in the works and am looking forward to continuing to grow The Humanity Archive.